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Posted by on in Dashka's Blog
How to Make A Bathtub Friendly Antlered Ship

Yesterday, at the launch party for my new picture book, The Antlered Ship, I taught folks how to make their very own bathtub-friendly antlered ship. It's the perfect bookstore, library or classroom craft -- no glue, no tools, no paint, no mess. All the materials are easy to find, around-the-house things -- perfect for upcyclers. Want to make your own? Watch the video demo or scroll down for written instructions. (I'll have a PDF of these instructions available for download soon. -- visit the Speaking section of this site and look under Resources and Learning Materials.)

Materials You'll Need:

·       1 or more pipe cleaners

·       2 rubber bands

·       3 corks

·       1 bamboo skewer trimmed to roughly 6 inches, or 6 inch knitting needle, or sharpened chop stick, or similar item to use as a mast

·       scrap card stock or acetate for sails (old folders or binder dividers work well)

·       clear or colored tape

·       scissors

·       hole punch 

Screen Shot 2017 09 24 at 5.58.09 PM

Step One: Make Your Antlered Figure Head

·      Cut one pipe cleaner in half

·      Take one half, make a loop, and shape the ends into antler shapes. The loop is your deer head – you can twist into a solid shape or keep it as a loop – your choice.

·      Twist the other half around the antlers to create more antler branches.

·      If you want, you can continue to add more pipe cleaners.

 Screen Shot 2017 09 24 at 5.40.14 PM

Step Two: Make A Ship and Attach Your Figurehead

·      Loop a rubber band around each end of the antlers.

·      Gather three corks. Make sure the center one is made of actual cork so that it’s easily pierced. If you have plastic corks, you will need to make a hole in the side of the center one with a nail or other implement. (Grown-ups should do this for small kids; older kids can do it themselves with supervision.)

·      Wrap the rubber bands around three corks so that the corks are held together like a raft and the figure head is at the bow.

 Screen Shot 2017 09 24 at 5.53.19 PM

Step Three: Add Sails

·      Cut sails out of card stock or acetate. I find that two rectangle shapes work well, with one smaller than the other.

·      Fold the smaller sail in half and pierce down the center line with whatever you’re using as a mast. (You can use a hole punch to make holes, or just poke it through)

·      Slide the sail towards the top and do the same with the larger sail.

·      Add a pennant to the top of your mast. You might use a piece of colored tape folded over the top and trimmed into a penant shape. Or you might cut a pennant shape from colored paper or acetate and tape it to the top of the mast with clear tape.

·      When all your sails are on the mast, poke the mast into the center cork.

Screen Shot 2017 09 24 at 5.45.50 PM

Step Four: Sail Away in Search of Answers . . . or More Questions

FullSizeRender

 

 

The Many Paths to Publication Part 6: An Interview with Tim McCanna

I first met Tim McCanna at an SCBWI conference in 2011. Back then he was an aspiring children's book author and a heck of a nice guy. Now he's still a heck of a nice guy but he's graduated from aspiring to published children's book author. How'd he do it? I was about to say "not in the usual way" but if you've been following these posts, you've probably gathered that there isn't a usual way. What I like about Tim's story is that he took pointers, tips and tidbits he gathered at conferences and combined them with some publicly-available tools and a few personal connections to forge a unique path to publication. It doesn't hurt that he, like Tim Myers from our last Paths to Publication Interview, is a multi-talented guy who writes songs, does voice-overs, and writes stories. Read on to learn about his just-released new book, Teeny Tiny Trucks, and how it developed from an idea to an app and a book.

Dashka: Tell me about Teeny Tiny Trucks! What was the inspiration?
Tim: Well, in late 2010 I attended an event hosted by SCBWI's San Francisco/South chapter. One of the speakers was Christy Ottaviano and she talked about how much her kids loved trucks and how she had unexpectedly ended up publishing a handful of "truck books." I had never really thought about it before, but there are a LOT of truck books out there. It's a whole category of its own. On the way home, I started brainstorming truck book ideas. Of course, most truck books celebrate how big and tough and loud they are. I knew right away I wanted to take it in a different direction and explore a world where trucks were super small. I also tapped into my childhood love of little truck toys, like Micro Machines and Tiny Mighty Mos.

Dashka: It sounds like you did some market research before you even started writing. Were there other things you learned from SCBWI or other sources that helped you hone your strategy?
Tim: As it turned out, the next regional SCBWI event I attended was the 2011 Golden Gate Conference at Asilomar near Monterey. One of the speakers was Rick Richter of Ruckus Media Group. Rick gave a great talk on apps and digital media and where the industry was headed. He assured us that apps and ebooks and printed books could all live together in harmony. But he also really encouraged us to jump on the app bandwagon. I had no idea how to do that, but I was excited to try. While considering ideas, I thought, "Hey, that Teeny Tiny Trucks picture book manuscript I wrote would make a cool app."

TTTrucks Cover

Dashka: How did you go about making an app proposal? How did you even know where to begin?
Tim: It's intimidating, right? For the first couple submissions, I just winged it. Cover letter, the manuscript, and very rough storyboard sketches with little notes on potential interactive elements. Uh, nothing came of those. Then last year, Julie Hedlund, who's a writer and creator of the 12x12 challenge, published an App Proposal Template based on the submission that landed her first story app contract. I would recommend it to anyone wanting to break into story apps. The template helped me create a much more robust and organized proposal with marketing strategies, a detailed app brief, and curriculum tie-ins.

Dashka: As an old-school, words-on-paper person, I sometimes find it hard to embrace the digital side of publishing. Were you pro-technology before you started? Anti-technology? Neutral?
Tim: Ah, well. I love a nice solid printed picture book as much as the next person. My wife and I read tons of traditional picture books with our kids and we have pretty strict "screen time" rules. But I've never shied from technology. If anything, my iPad has made me a reader again. I love the ease of downloading samples from the iBooks store to find new purchases, and being able to quickly look up big words I don't know! I read novels almost exclusively on my iPad. As far as the publishing industry goes, I can only hope that the future will bring lots of quality story apps for people to enjoy and lots of beautiful hardbound books, too.

Dashka: OK, so you've told us how you got the idea for Teeny Tiny Trucks. How did the book get its big break?
Tim: Gosh, everything is intertwined. So, I had my Trucks story and my first shabby proposal sitting in my Dropbox going nowhere. As I was participating in the 2011 Picture Book Idea Month, I heard about Julie Hedlund who was launching her 12x12 writing challenge, which I joined. I wrote this silly song for the mid-year celebration of 12x12 and had also written the opening show theme for Katie Davis' kidlit podcast, Brain Burps About Books. Meanwhile, Julie's publisher at Little Bahalia was considering adding a sing-a-long song version for the app they were developing for her book A Troop is a Group of Monkeys. My name came up and I ended up writing the song and narrating the app! Totally fun. Building that working relationship with Stacey at Little Bahalia gave me the confidence to revive my Trucks app proposal using Julie's template. I submitted it and had a contract in two weeks.

Dashka: Talk to me a bit about how personal relationships helped you along the way. You and I met at a conference for the first time and you've clearly met lots of other, more helpful, people too. Do you think writers need to get out more?
Tim: Oh yeah. Every bit of momentum I've gained since starting out four and a half years ago can be directly attributed to the people I've met by attending SCBWI events and participating in online writing challenges. My number one bit of advice to anyone--especially newcomers to the industry--wanting to make kidlit friends and expand their network is to volunteer at their local SCBWI chapter.

Dashka: Another thing that strikes me about you is that you bring some extra talents to the table. How has being a songwriter helped you as a writer? And now it seems you can add voice actor to your resume.
Tim: Oddly enough, it took me a long time to figure out how to integrate my music and performance backgrounds into children's book publishing. I've recently done some book trailers, and I write goofy little jingles for my kidlit video series. And yes, I've gotten to narrate a handful of story apps, too. All these things I've done in my little home studio with a laptop, a keyboard and a microphone. When I decided to take Trucks in the app direction, I set my stanzas to a tune and added a catchy chorus. And considering the subject matter, I took another cue from my childhood and gave it a 1970's trucker song kind of vibe (i.e. Willy Nelson's "On the Road Again"). I included an mp3 of the Teeny Tiny Trucks song along with my app proposal and I'm told it pushed my submission over the top.

TTT Spread Weight

Dashka: TTT was originally going to be an app only, but now it's been released as a book too. How did that come about?
Tim: I'm so excited about that. The original plan was: app first, then maybe a book. I'm not a publisher, and I don't know all the numbers, but I think between having such a great looking product thanks to Keith Frawley's illustrations, plus the timing of publishing before the holidays, it just kinda made sense for Little Bahalia, our publisher. And we're making history in the process! A title releasing simultaneously in print and interactive app form. Gives consumers some fun choices.

Dashka: Did you ever think your first book would come via an app?
Tim: Nope. Never. I just followed the opportunities and my instincts. In my case, I wrote the story first, not even thinking of it as an app. I would recommend that process! Teeny Tiny Trucks was just one of many manuscripts in my portfolio, but due to its style and subject, it naturally lent itself to an interactive format.

Dashka: What are the advantages of entering the publishing world via an app?
Tim: Traditional publishing can be a notoriously slow process. My app, on the other hand is coming out roughly eight months after I sold the manuscript. And, in theory, an app will never go out of print! Plus, the interactive elements, when done well, can be amazing. The sky's the limit, really. An app format offers all kinds of special features like puzzles, music, and animation.

Dashka: Are there disadvantages?
Tim: Well, if someone doesn't have access to an iPad or an iPhone, then they ain't gettin' the app. That's a bummer. New apps are also at the mercy of "discoverability." Meaning, unless you're Angry Birds, you have to claw your way through the glut of apps flooding the market to reach the top charts. We're all competing against very sophisticated video game apps, many of which are free.

Dashka: What have you learned along the way that you wish you knew at the beginning?
Tim: There is no single path to publication, you have to be the driving force behind your success, and it will all play out quite differently than how you imagined.

Dashka: Yes! That's exactly what I've hoped to communicate with this series of blog posts. Do you have words of advice for somebody interested in following a similar path?
Tim: Anyone who is writing for children strives for strong characters, unique voice, interesting conflicts, and readability. Whether aiming for story apps or printed books, put your writing craft first. Have a great story be the foundation for whatever medium you want to work in. Bells and buttons come later.

Dashka: Last month I did some critique group matchmaking on my blog. Do you think it's important for writers to have critique partners?
Tim: Oh gosh, don't get me started on critique groups. To me, they are as essential as pen and paper. Seriously. I've had two groups and found both by meeting people at regional SCBWI conferences. My current group meets once a month. Writing is such a solitary art. Being in a critique group gives you a community to check in with, get support, and test material. If you can find folks that give quality feedback and not just "This is cute!" or "This isn't working for me." grab on to them and never let go. Being in a crit group can keep you motivated, but it also means you're ready and willing to hear the hard truth about your work and be open to cutting material and rewriting.

Dashka: What else do you have in the works? More apps? More books? More songs?
Tim: Yes, yes, and yes. I'd love an excuse to follow up Teeny Tiny Trucks with some other teeny tiny modes of transportation! We'll see... I switched gears this summer and started writing my first middle grade novel, which has been a fun new challenge.

Dashka: Thanks for coming by the blog, Tim! I hope you'll come back to tell us about it when it's done! In the meantime, Tim has graciously offered to send a signed copy of Teeny Tiny Trucks to one lucky commenter. He'll do the signing. I'll be responsible for picking a lucky winner. To enter the contest, make sure to leave a comment telling us why you need your own teeny tiny truck. I'll pick a winner on November 7. And for all you tiny truck fans, the book is available through Amazon or can be ordered through your local bookstore. The app will be out soon as well. 

The Many Paths to Publication Part 5: An Interview with Tim Myers

Tim Myers is a terrific writer, teacher and storyteller. I was a huge fan of his best-selling book Basho and the Fox for many years before I met him in person. When I did, I discovered we had much in common, including the fact that we both write in multiple genres, and I became as much a fan of the person as I am of the writer (when you read this interview, you'll understand why). In addition to being an award-winning short story writer, songwriter and poet, Tim is the author of eleven picture books, including If You Give a T-Rex a Bone, Looking for Luna, Basho and the River Stones, The Out-Foxed Fox, and Dark-Sparkle Tea, and he has another four picture books in the works. He has recently published a new book of poetry, a new picture book, and a non-fiction e-book, Glad to Be Dad: A Call to Fatherhood, which won the inaugural Ben Franklin Digital Award from the Independent Book Publishers Association. He graciously agreed to visit the blog this month to talk about his many paths to publication.

 

Dashka: Tell me a little about your latest picture book.

Tim With River Stones new version

Tim: My latest children's book is Down at the Dino Wash Deluxe, from Sterling. My children and I played endlessly with dinosaur figures. But my sons also especially loved vehicles--I sometimes wonder if the young mind makes any meaningful distinction between dinosaurs and large trucks or construction equipment. So I wanted to combine the two, and got the rather shrewd idea of a giant car wash that caters to city dinosaurs. (If dinos still existed, I might be a billionaire).
And how awesome is this? I just found a "Three Boys and a Dog" blog post where the wonderful mom-blogger not only read the book to her kids but baked chocolaty dirt onto their dino-figures so they could play Dino Wash Deluxe in the yard!

Dino Wash cover

Dashka: I love how creative mom-bloggers are. And now you've entered the parenting blog world yourself, while also publishing a book of poetry.


Tim: I recently published Glad to Be Dad: A Call to Fatherhood which made #5 on Amazon's "Hot New Releases in Fatherhood" list, was featured on the Parents Magazine site, quoted on Disney's BabyZone site, won the Ben Franklin Digital Award, and has gotten excellent reviews. One of the chapters is appearing in "Motherlode," The New York Times parenting blog. I also recently published Dear Beast Loveliness: Poems of the Body which got a great review from the nationally-known poet Grace Cavalieri.

 

Dashka: You made different publication choices with each book – Glad to Be Dad is an e-book, Down at the Dino Wash Deluxe came from Sterling Children's, which is a subsidiary of Barnes and Noble, and Dear Beast Loveliness comes from BlazeVOX which calls itself "an independent publisher of weird little books." Why did you go the route you went for each?


Tim: I wish I was in the position to pick and choose which publishers I work with. I don't mean that I ignore such choices, but I've found that my work is too varied to be submitted to only certain publishers. So I do a good amount of research and submit work to all kinds of different houses. (And get rejected all the time). My primary goal is to make good books and connect with readers. And a writer really can't predict whether a book will be a commercial success or not, or whether a particular publisher can make that happen. Again, I'm not crazy--I'm delighted if a big, high-status publisher will take on a book of mine! But my heart pretty much burns 24 hours a day for art, so I follow any route that will ease that wonderful, joyous burning.

Glad Dad cover image high res

Dashka: And you haven't been afraid to plunge into the digital deep end. Has publishing changed a lot in the course of your career?

 

Tim: Anyone can see what an absolute tsunami the digital revolution has been for human culture. And of course huge particular changes have come to the book industry too. Years ago, before I'd even published anything, I'd get long, thoughtful letters back from publishers at major houses about the manuscript they were passing on. That doesn't happen now (though my experience with editors at major houses has made me tremendously impressed with them). And the push to self-promote has also changed the landscape almost beyond recognition. People say it all the time: new opportunities, new challenges. Part of my response to that has been--I'll put this in Wall Street terms, so it'll sound intelligent instead of desperate--to diversify.


Dashka: It's great to diversify -- and you're a pretty diversely-talented guy anyway. Even so, it can be hard to keep all the balls in the air. Do you find it challenging to write and publish in multiple genres?


Tim: I find it beyond exhilarating to write in different genres, and since I'm also a storyteller and a song-writer, this kind of variety is mother's milk to me. In fact, I know I could never specialize; I'm a generalist in a specialist's world. And there are real disadvantages, career disadvantages, to being a generalist. But as I always say--What's life for? To satisfy my soul with art--that's what I'm after. Holy cats--if I wanted money and fame, there are a lot smarter ways to go about it!


Dashka: I sometimes hear people say that writing in multiple genres dilutes your "brand" as an author – an accusation I'm sensitive to, since I also write fiction, non-fiction, poetry and children's books. What do you think about the idea that we need to brand ourselves as writers?


Tim: I understand the point about branding, but I think the idea is often over-applied, and if not fully understood it can actually be dangerous if you're committed to art. I have a piece coming out in the SCBWI Bulletin that goes into detail on my thoughts about branding.


Dashka: Oh, I'm looking forward to reading that! Hopefully you'll reassure me. Now tell me what it's been like to publish and promote a digital book? What did you know or think you knew about digital publishing beforehand? Did the experience change your feelings about e-books?


Tim: I really didn't know much at all, though of course I kept my head up and paid attention. But I got very lucky when Christopher Robbins, the publisher at a new and digitally-savvy niche publisher called Familius, took my Glad to Be Dad. Christopher is a veteran, and he taught me so much, and encouraged me as I learned on my own. I'm very grateful to him. I'd known for a long time that I had to get more involved in marketing and promotion, and he gave me the opportunity to do that in a big way. It was a watershed moment for me. Of course this also has its costs; time spent on promo is time not spent writing. But my hope is that some careful, constantly-tweaked combination of the two can help writers both write their best and connect with others as much as possible.


Dashka: Many people say that it's a great time to be a writer, because there are so many publishing options. But it can be overwhelming, too. Any advice for writers who are trying to figure out how best to publish their books? Anything you wish someone had told you along the way?


Tim: Overwhelming--yes! It's like when you go to the store to buy mustard, look at the 900 varieties on the shelves, and realize you'll need a graduate seminar in order to make a choice. The thing is, though--well, I find a couple of principles very helpful here. First--it looks worse than it is. I don't mean to minimize it; the world of creative production is in something like an uproar right now--look at the music industry. I find myself thinking a lot these days about the Oklahoma Land Rush. My point, though, is that it looks more intimidating from a distance. Have faith in your ability to learn and adjust, then get in there and do it. And besides--some of the fundamental realities will never change; the basic relationships between writers, gate-keepers, editors, and readers tend to stay the same. To make my point even more specific: Don't freak out. Don't get me wrong; I've done my share of worrying about all the change. But that anxiety was mostly just wasted energy.


Second--and this is closely related--it's like when you're playing basketball. Say you steal a pass and break for the basket, and you've got a couple of people to go around before you can lay it in. The thing is, you've got to give it all you've got--but you've also got to stay relaxed. This is a paradox, but a true one. Staying relaxed means you can keep your head and react as conditions change. And that's really important in the shifting world we find ourselves in today. But the main thing is--it's ALWAYS a great time to be a writer, whatever's going on in the world! It gets harder, it gets easier, you get a door slammed here, you get a break there. But you get to write!


Dashka: Thanks for that reminder. Sometimes we all get so caught up in the push to publish and promote that we forget why it is we do what we do in the first place! And thanks for stopping by Start at the Beginning!

The Many Paths to Publication Part 1: An Interview With Writer Nicole Lataif

I’ve been teaching an online Children’s Picture Book Writing class through media bistro for six years years and recently launched an advanced class for graduates of the introductory class (I call the two classes PB1 and PB2). In the course of teaching these classes I’ve had a chance to work with hundreds of aspiring picture book writers and help their first books transform from a vague idea to a fully-realized manuscript. 

Late last year, when I began developing my advanced picture book class, it occurred to me that my students might want to know more about the many paths to publication that beginning writers have taken. All my students start in the same place – with the desire to write for children but not much of a road map. But after their six weeks with me, they have gone in many different directions. Some have found agents. Some have submitted to editors directly. Some have worked with large mainstream publishers. Some have worked with smaller or niche houses. Some have self-published.

Curious to know what paths people have taken, I've begun tracking down former students to hear their stories. Below is the first in what I hope will be a regular series of interviews with writers who have found different ways to get their work into the world in this very competitive publishing sector. I chose Nicole Lataif as my first interview because she took a path I knew almost nothing about. Her first book, Forever You, was published through a Catholic publishing house called Pauline. I think her story will be instructive not only for people writing for any kind of religious readership, but for anyone who is writing for a particular niche or a specialized audience.

 

Dashka: Thanks for stopping in at Start At The Beginning. Tell us about Forever You.

Nicole: At the most basic level, this resource for Christian faith formation introduces children ages 4-8 to what being human is all about. Whether you are a parent, grandparent, or catechist, you will find this resource to be helpful in explaining the concept of a "soul" to your children.

Forever You

Dashka: Who is publishing it?

Nicole: Pauline Books and Media a Christian, traditional publishing house of the Daughters of Saint Paul, an international congregation of women religious dedicated to serving the Church through the media of social communication. They have 13 stores around the US and in English speaking Canada. 

Dashka: Why did you decide to go this route? Did you consider a mainstream publisher?

Nicole: My route to publication was unique. I was given an opportunity to have lunch with my [now] editor, after an introduction from a friend brought us together. At that luncheon, I explicitly asked what she was looking to publish. It just so happened that I had extensive experience in the subject matter for which she needed a writer. I had also wanted to write about this topic for a while. So, it was a perfect match. I encourage anyone who is able to meet with an editor to be sure to have questions ready and know what you can and cannot do. Originally, I submitted a proposal for 3 books (A PB, a novel and a chapter book!). That was crazy on my part. I retracted the novel and chapter book ideas and worked exclusively on the PB, which is what eventually got published. Thank God for my editor was patient! In sum, ask direct questions and don’t bite off more than you can chew!  

Dashka:What are the advantages of publishing with a Christian or any kind of niche press?

Nicole: The advantages of publishing with a Christian house are (1) to work with a niche market and (2) identify with my audience to create a more effective product. Firstly, by choosing a niche market, I am able to stay focused on what one group of people wants/needs, instead of trying to be everything to everyone. I am able to become an “expert” on one group of buyers. Secondly, I am living the lifestyle of my audience. I AM my market. The people who buy my book are just like me in their interests and passions. The topics I cover in my book are messages that I know are needed from experience. Write what you know.

Dashka: Are there disadvantages?

Nicole: The disadvantage is that I do not have a large marketing budget from my publisher. I do have a wonderful publicist provided by Pauline Books and Media, but her time is limited. Should you sign with a smaller house, and now sometimes even if you sign with a larger house, be prepared to market your book heavily.

Dashka: In my experience, that's true even when you do work with large mainstream publishers! Writers have to learn how to promote, whether they want to or not. So how are you marketing and promoting your book?

Nicole: My marketing plan is extensive! I have a few years of professional experience in marketing, which helps a lot, so I developed a 3-year plan. I also hired a book-marketing professional for a few hours to fill me in on what I didn’t already know. In the first month, I sold 46% of what the publisher hoped I’d sell in the first year. To reach this, I did heavy social media promotion, blog interviews, cross-promotion with other websites, and asked my friends and family to help spread the word. Those numbers don’t mean much--the true test will be: where am I in a year?! Two years? Etc? My publisher does help me in many ways, especially with brainstorming, making contacts and advising me when I have questions. However, they have limited resources.

Dashka: What have you learned about the publishing process that you wish you knew at the beginning?

Nicole: I knew this at the beginning, but I think it is important to mention: no matter what your marketing background, no matter how much support you have at home, no matter what, what, what—you probably won’t make enough money to survive exclusively as a writer. You need to be fully prepared for that reality. I also wish I knew how much marketing would be involved in the process. People think getting published is “making it,” but it’s just the beginning. Set aside time each week to promote your book. Lastly, come up with a website to build a relationship with your customers. It could be a blog, an interactive site, anything, but you need something. I did this here: www.kidsfaithgarden.com.

Dashka: Your website offers tons of resources to keep readers coming back to your site -- it's a great model for writers of all kinds! Do you think you'll use the same publishing path for your next book?

Nicole: It all depends. If this year renders positive results, I will absolutely consider it! As a support system, my publisher goes above and beyond to support me. If we work together again, I would be so pleased.

Dashka: Tell me about the process of finding an illustrator. Did Pauline involve you at all in the process?

Nicole: I have never met or spoken to my illustrator. I submitted my manuscript and saw the final product a year later. The publishing house had complete control over the illustrations and the illustrator is totally uninvolved in the marketing of the book. 

Dashka: Do you have any final words of advice for people interested in following a similar path to publication?

Nicole: Check your motives. If you are writing to be famous, you won’t be. If you are writing to be rich, you won’t be. If you are writing to get out a message that you feel is important, go for it! Also, plan for the process to take years (and I’m talking double-digits). Writing is arduous and long, so be sure to enjoy the journey! Write to simply enjoy the process, not to reach some kind of destination of publication (because, most people don’t get published).

Dashka: Excellent advice, Nicole. Creating good work has to be its own reward, because the monetary rewards can be elusive. Thanks so much for agreeing to be interviewed for the blog!

Posted by on in Dashka's Blog

I was interviewed on the Galley Cat podcast today about my new book Dangerously Ever After and about the craft of writing picture books. 

 

My two pieces of advice for writers: learn the form and don't be a blowhard. 

 

My advice for parents: keep reading aloud to your kids, long after they can read on their own.

 

You can listen to the complete interview here.

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